Here’s a piece I wrote about Sexpo, published on ABC Unleashed today.
I’ve included some of the pics me and my mate took on the day. I hesitiated to do this. But they illustrate the ugliness I have described. (I have not included more pornographic visuals).
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Billed as the world’s biggest health, sexuality and lifestyle exhibition, Sexpo came to Sydney’s Hordern Pavilion last weekend.
According to its website, “This show will increase your attractiveness and sexual drive. It contains beautiful women, hunky men, nudity and crackin’ entertainment.”
Call me fussy. Say I’m hard to please. But if what I witnessed is supposed to promote a healthy, happy sex life, then I think I just saw the death of sex.
Sexpo sex is formulaic, conveyor belt, plastic, industrialised, peep show porn sex.
The space was filled with pumping, grinding, crotch grabbing and female porn stars ‘presenting’, as they say in baboon studies. Cosmetically enhanced bodies waxed to within an inch of their lives, a landfill’s worth of plastic toys, dildos, whirling vibrators, penis rings and fake vaginas.
There were faux lesbian threesomes in hardcore acts of nastiness. Pole-dancers, strippers, bondage mistresses and men in little aprons with their bums showing. Audience members were hypnotised on stage into believing they were receiving oral sex.
Male show-goers pulled their pants down on stage and played with their penises. An artist known as Pricasso slathered his in paint, ready to capture your likeness.
Men practised their anal prowess on stage with lifeless blow-up dolls. Others paid a porn star $40 to pose topless with them. Many visited the laporium for paid personalised lap dances. At times it felt like you were walking through one giant erection.
All of it captured by men with video cameras, for a longer lasting Sexpo.
Designed to turn us all on were a man in a suit covered in fake penises, giant characters depicting male and female sexual parts, a sex sideshow alley including moving clowns with heads as genitals, the gerbil sex train advertised with giant breasts and a penis in between.
A celebration of the vandalism of the human body.
Ex- footballer now porn film maker Warwick Capper in his Hustler T-shirt? Sorry, just not doing it for me. Ex-Hey Hey it’s Saturday’s Russell Gilbert as ‘crackin’ entertainer and MC. Define crackin?
Two older long-bearded men sold T-shirts with slogans like ‘Wipe ya eyes princess and harden the f*ck up’ and offered to sign ladies underwear. Another T-shirt depicted a woman bound, with a red ball stuffed in her mouth and the slogan ‘Silence is golden’. “I look at that and see fun!” said the cheery saleswoman.
I look at that and see the objectification and subordination of women.
My friend and I could ‘enhance our assets’ for a mere $7,000 each for boobs and ‘tush’. Photos of pumped up breasts and tight bums adorned the stand. We were invited to handle the silicone implants.
There were also before-and-after photos of labia subjected to a scalpel for a bit of tidying up. And would we like to know more about the G-spot enhancement? Women are not good enough as they are. We must be sexually modified.
The enthusiastic staff testified to the skill of the boss. He’s operated on all of them. One showed me the bandages around her mid section: pre-wedding liposuction. Hymen repair was also on the menu of services offered. They were seeing one to two Middle Eastern girls a week seeking the procedure to ‘prove’ their virginity.
Genital repair of another kind was being offered by a charity called Clitoraid. A devastating human rights violation against a woman’s bodily integrity is made sexy. They were raising money for female genital mutilation repair in Africa, with slogans such as “Give a Stranger an Orgasm”, “Help Build a Pleasure Hospital” and “Adopt a Clitoris”.
There were photos of smiling African women and a baby mid mutilation. A staffer told me they stopped showing a film of a child being cut as too many men stood around laughing.
I wondered what African women would think of the pornification of their suffering?
And, this, my last encounter as I was leaving.
A shivering young [Asian] woman in a wet T-shirt, sitting in a cage waiting for someone to strike the ‘bang me’ target on the image of a woman bent over.
Freezing, soaked, alone, disconnected, in an enclosure, to be ogled by men.
In the end, Sexpo is anti-intimacy, anti-connection and anti-warmth. It just leaves you feeling cold.
Melinda Tankard Reist is a Canberra author, blogger, commentator and advocate for women and girls.
46 Responses
The last image of the Thai woman is particularly disturbing. Note the “We use Recycled Water” proudly emblazoned across the front of the cage. There is more than just recycled water being “used” here. It seems the organisers care about the environment… but not human dignity.
There are many counterfeits in our lives today, I see two here:
true love which we all crave, being sold as sex which is really only one facet of true love.
and the idea that a material item we purchase will give us satisfaction.
When you get “sold” a counterfeit the result is anger and frustration.
I’ve never been to Sexpo but it sounds like every other Trade Show I’ve had to go to. I find them overwhelming. To see so much ‘product’ in one place is to see it for what it is: sad, desperate waste of the earths resources. This is less about sex than it is about marketing, corporations and products; an attempt to sell us something we already all have but in a severely diminished form. Sex in all its glory is beautiful, fun, dirty, laughable, intimate, exhausting, kind, sharing, undefinable by words… it is not plastic, cold, calculating and smelling like strawberries. It should not and cannot be bottled and sold back to us. It is not a product. Loneliness and lack of intimacy cannot be cured by a shinny product. These industries try to sell us something that we all have the capacity to create. Shinny products promise so much but they cannot deliver and I’m sure they leave the purchaser even more despondent, lonely and sad. I think these sort of Expos are a great way to show the Sex Industry for what it is an INDUSTRY designed to make a profit by selling PRODUCTS that have nothing to do with real human sexuality.
Yuck. I remember driving past a billboard for Sexpo and talking with my husband about how utterly revolted we were at the picture it presented of a happy young couple on their way to visit some porn stars.
The slogans of that ‘Clitoraid’ charity remind me way too closely of the ‘don’t let cancer steal 2nd base’ t-shirts… an unmeasurable burden of human suffering reduced to a smirking slogan.
Sexpo really is trashy. A few of my mates went there years ago and said it was just like a larger version of a sex shop, tacky, fake and ultimately a big let down.
The fact that men would laugh at child being hurt should be alarming to everyone. It really shows how desensitised people have become to violence against women, thanks to porn depicting such violence as erotic.
Thanks for enlightening us to the reality of Sexpo Melinda.
It doesn’t seem to me that Sexpo is about sex. It’s about the pornography industry – and there’s a difference. Sex has many different meanings for many different people, but Sexpo claiming to represent that is just a joke. Sexpo is simply another example of how pornography – and its very narrow definition of sex – has entered mainstream, and worse, how it’s glorified. The picture of the young woman in a cage (hello? she’s in a cage!) is particularly disturbing. Who thinks things like this up?
Sex has been commodified!
Thank you for subjecting yourself to this horrible experience. After reading your review I feel like I need to be sick, or cry – or both.
How dare they cheapen sex. How dare they call oppression and rape “fun”? How DARE they laugh at the sexual torture of a baby. Isn’t that an offence under child-porn laws? If men who look at internet child porn can have their homes searched and their computers seized and be charged with crimes then surely these men (and particularly the people staffing the booth) should be investigated also??!
That last image literally makes me sick to my stomach. What was the point of that particular “display”? Was it a dunk tank?
My first thought when I saw it was “sex trafficking” – at least that’s what the image reminded me of. A young, Asian woman in a cage, there solely for the use/entertainment/pleasure of men. Disgusting no matter what the “point” was.
The whole thing is so depraved, it’s amazing it’s allowed to exist. The “silence is golden” slogan made me gasp out loud. How does any woman (and even men!) NOT see the degradation in that??? I don’t get it. I truly, truly don’t get it.
YUCK.
It’s terrifying how much this world hates women.
yes SP sex trafficking was exactly reminded me of too.
Cannot believe that people think that all this will make their sex lives happier and healthier, most people I have spoken to that have tried to or felt “required” to incorporate it into their sex lives to “spice” things up, said they felt humiliated and that it actually harmed the relationship. But mostly harmed how they felt about themselves.
It also made me want to be sick and cry.
Thank you Melinda
I was the mate who went to Sexpo with Melinda.
It wasn’ t comfortable for me. I believe there was an expectation that I was there for three main things: to get sexually excited, to do something about my unsatisfactory body and to feed an appetite for porn in my future.
One hears of the ‘ breaking ground’ which is an initiation place, often used by traffickers to
get victims to a point where they are ready to do what the trafficker wants. People who walk through the doors of Sexpo experience the same conditioning. You enter an artificial environment infused with porn, which is a breaking ground for something bigger and
more graphic. It was tacky, but behind the toys, play -things, plastic objects, was the impact of the porn cartel.
A cartel that says it’s okay to put a young female in a cage, a cartel that
says it’ s okay to have live threesome porn scenes on a stage, a cartel that would allow a cult to have a stand which hides behind the reconstruction of women’s genital.
A porn cartel which is never satisfied and ensures you walk away with the same feeling.
Melinda highlights this brilliantly in this post.
I can still hear the jeering and cheering of the groups of men getting off on the live sex acts.
I came away disgusted and angry with images like the young girl in the cage etched into my memory.
Thank you for putting up with all of these horrors, Melinda, to let us know what direction the sex industry is moving in these days. The industry makes most of its money off men who pay to see films of women and girls being abused, or pay to abuse them in prostitution, but it was interesting to see that the medical mutilation of women looks like it’s also now a big investment activity. Were there any other medical/beauty mutilation practices in addition to breast implants, liposuction, labia surgery, anal bleaching, hymen repair, and g-spot enhancement advertised? It’s so sad and frightening to see that the sex industry has come this far.
Hymen repair? Who could be so deceived as to believe this is possible… and for what purpose? Does pyschological repair come with it? Men laughing at a baby being mutilated? They’ll be laughing all the way to pit of hell at the end of their miserable lives. Whilst the whole sexpo product humiliates women, ironically it is to these stupid women involved in this sickening industry that the larger portion of the blame for the sexualisation of society and subjectification of women lies. Women are supposed to be the guardians of sex; a beautiful gift to those receiving and giving the pleasure when it is not abused. What sexpo calls pleasure, most sane good living people would call filth!
I keep trying to write a comment Melinda, but every time I try I just don’t know where to begin. So much wrong with this. The Thai wet t-shirt woman looks like she’s anything but ‘Loving Sexpo’.
And what’s with the revolting penis man? Surely they don’t think the ‘penis people/puppets’ are actually eye candy for women? I get the sense that the penises everywhere are more about stroking the male ego.
I also detest that it’s called ‘Sexpo’. It really does hijack the word ‘sex’. It should be called ‘Sexploito’.
Good on you for going and sharing your experience with us. I was on a girl’s weekend a few years back and had the ‘opportunity’ to go. I couldn’t think of anything worse, and despite trying to talk myself into going to not be a ‘stick in the mud’, decided to go see a movie (happily alone!) instead. The others went out of curiousity, but said it was pathetic and a waste of money, and they wished they’d come with me.
There were a lot of creepy, tragic looking people walking through the foyer as I made my decision not to go. Some were almost salivating. I think most peope though (like my ‘non-likeminded’ friends!) were there out of curiousity and because they’ve been fooled into thinking they’re so ‘free and liberated’.
Slowly but surely the blinkers will start coming off – particularly with articles like yours. GREAT job. Again!
I found this description just horrifying. I am horrified that men would laugh at a baby being mutilated, that people would actually buy and wear tshirts promoting sexual violence, that they not only put a wet woman in a tank/cage but also chose an Asian woman (represents sex trafficking too closely), etc.
Then people wonder why there are so many pedophiles, rapes, molestations, abductions…. why isn’t it obvious to everyone?!!! You can’t advertise and sell violence and rape as fun then wonder why people get abused!
Sadly too, isn’t it often the more innocent and vulnerable who cop the abuse from people who think these events are fun. Just horrifying.
I should add a very obvious comment:
I fear for my children as they grow up in this culture.
it appeares the old comment , all it takes for evil to florish, is for good men (and women!) to do nothing, i fear to many years of turning cheeks, supporting the “less” fortunate and minority fringes” and looking for the good in evil men, has truly come back to bite us.
Ms Tankard Reist, how do you feel about women who do this of their own volition?
Tim do you honestly believe that women are doing this of their own volition? I think that many of these women probably don’t really know any other way to be. If we want to know why people make the choices they make, we need to retrace what choices they have available. If society bombards little girls with the ideas that this is the way ‘real’ women behave, this is way ’empowered’ women behave, this is the way ‘ideal’ women behave then how can these little girls grow up with any other way of knowing what it means to be a woman?
We can not make choices if we only know of one way to be. So while perhaps these women are legally participating of their own volition, I would question that they are also making an informed choice. Our society is not only condoning but also encouraging violence, porn and the objectification of women as the norm and it is very difficult for women to resist these dominant discourses. Perhaps many of the women participating in these degrading activities feel there are only two ways to be a woman: the porn star or the boring, anti-sex, fat, ugly feminist that the rest of us are accused of being. Because these are certainly the two most publicized ideas of women!
Nor do I believe all the men participating in this are doing so of their own volition. The same societal pressures are on our boys growing up. There is no gender-blame here, just a big warning that we are creating a society that is doing real damage to both men and women (in my humble view).
Well said AJ – spot on.
Tim, there were some African Americans who were ‘happy’ to be slaves. That didn’t make it OK. I think the same principle can be applied here.
HI ALL…I would like to write up a little piece i found on the net which i think is entirely appropriate to understanding the *guts*of this discussion..but I am going to test the captcha code first!!
TESTING…
Melinda, I have the same problem as Catherine. I’m actually struggling to be able to think what it is I want to say. I feel so upset by your account of this hideous event that I don’t know where to start. I’m particularly offended by this manner of addressing female genital mutilation, a devastating travesty that has nothing to do with sexuality, and everything to do with brutality and violence, and that is perpetrated against small children! To turn this into a smutty, smart-alec show makes me so angry I can hardly speak.
The saddest part of this to me, is that it is not confined to displays such as sexpo. That t0shirt with the bound woman closely resembles a situation I found myself in recently in the course of my work. I was at an official lecture the other day at a medical school, where a student was asked to give a humorous intro before a scheduled genetics lecture. This student gave a presentation about the fun of gene splicing, how you can make a tiger and a lion into a liger. Then he proceeded to say how great that you can cross a woman and a ninja – putting up a photo of a woman in a provocative ninja outfit, in a provocative position, and the tagline – “Making your sandwiches in blissful silence”. He went on to say ’cause ninja women are hot, and well, silence would be great’. I couldn’t believe it happened in the middle of the lecture, but not only did everyone laugh, but the lecturer thanked him for his intro and jokingly asked if he’d like to do the whole lecture as his presentation was so good. I have of course complained to the faculty, but am still waiting for a response. I find it amazing that at a high level in a medical school, that this is considered an appropriate behaviour. It makes me less surprised to see it somewhere like sexpo.
I can’t even talk about people laughing at a video of a baby being mutilated. Like everyone else, it makes me sick.
Sexpo is nothing more than an excuse for misogyny and promotion of of male hatred and contempt towards women. The t-shirt depicting a woman bound is not unusual – I’ve seen a similar image to this one on open sale in a London shop.
But not only is Sexpo promoting male hatred and male contempt for women it is also promoting the myth of penis worship. Ever heard of narcissim because this is what Sexpo is promoting the myth that a man’s penis defines him. Because the penis is soo powerful. Lies of course but men are eagerly believing such lies.
The images are hateful but sadly they are not unusual nor uncommon – women and their bodies are just disposable ‘things’ for men to sexually exploit in whatever way they wish. And yes the image of the young Thia woman – well of course she ‘chose’ to be imprisoned in a cage for gawking male passers-by to leer at.
The porn industry has been very successful at desensitising viewing images of men deliberately engaged in committing whatever degradation they can imagine upon women and girls. So we should not be surprised at the images being promoted by Sexpro.
Neither should we surprised that some men indeed many men refuse to see the truth instead they continue to delude themselves with the claim ‘but the woman chose to enter the porn industry, or it is all fantasy.’ If that fails – why then these men claim ‘but what about the men in porn.’ You see these men refuse to accept that women are indeed human – instead these men believe women are men’s sexual service stations and yes what supposedly passes for human sexual expression is in fact male sexual domination and male control over women and girls.
Remember that old adage ‘no humans were involved – hence no humans were hurt.’ Well that is what Sexpo is claiming women are – ‘non-human hence no humans were harmed!’
Wow AJ, the hypocrisy is absolutely stunning. They’re not making the choice you’d like them to make, that’s the real point you’re making here, right? Even if the choice they’ve made is a bad one in my opinion and yours (ethically, morally etc.), we have no right to tell them what to do. Are you somehow superior to these people? Have you talked with any of the performers? Do you think they actually want to be told by others what they can and cannot do? It amuses me that this blog claims to be a feminist one, and then berates women for choices that the author disagrees with. And funnily enough, every time it involves sex or a woman’s reproductive choices.
Once again, the issue of ‘choice’ is used to talk about the woman’s ‘choice’ to participate in her own degradation and humiliation.
Lets talk about ‘choice’ Edward.
Why do these men ‘choose’ to sell a shirt that is clearly a mockery of a woman’s distress after he has ejaculated in her eyes?
Why do other men ‘choose’ to wear it?
Why do men ‘choose’ to laugh at a baby being mutilated?
Why do men ‘choose’ to wear a shirt that depicts a woman tied and bound with a message about silencing women?
Regarding women’s ‘choices’ and I used the term lightly, if you offer some people enough money, you can get them to do all sorts of degrading, humiliating things, particularly when they live in a culture that communicates to them that they are valued only for their ability to do those things. It is awfully convenient for men don’t you think that these women would ‘choose’ to freeze their asses off in a cage for example?
Very convenient for men that some women ‘choose’ to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to turn themselves into a virtual frankenstein, their skin pulled tightly around their faces, lips pumped full of collagen, large pieces of plastic inserted into their chests until they barely resemble the person they used to be. All of this surgery helps men to forget that there is in fact a person associated with that body, a person with a history and a family and to see only a collection of useful body parts. I suppose it is then easier to produce films that refer to these women as ‘sluts’ ‘whores’ ‘cumbuckets’ ‘meatholes’ – why do these men choose to refer to women with such titles?
Why do men purchase titles that treat women in this way, that call them these names and masturbate over them? Why do men get so excited over women being treated like sh*t? Why do men make these choices?
Just because a woman ‘chooses’ to be treated badly, doesn’t mean you are exempt from making your own choice to instead treat them with respect.
Edward, if I had a dollar for the number of times i’ve heard ‘i thought feminism was…..’ I would be a wealthy woman. I have come to the conclusion that the only feminism men will accept is one that meets their sexual needs.
Melinda Liszewski; “Regarding women’s ‘choices’ and I used the term lightly, if you offer some people enough money, you can get them to do all sorts of degrading, humiliating things, particularly when they live in a culture that communicates to them that they are valued only for their ability to do those things.”
Melinda, you’re suggesting that these women have no choice? At all? Somebody is forcing them to do this? I think this would be illegal if this was the case, seeing as the convention/trade show/whatever was in Australia, they’d be breaking a lot of laws huh? Secondly, I really don’t think society values women in that way (unless you’re living in a completely different society to me). As far as I can see women are highly valued in society (but we could do better at the CEO and politician level in terms of employment). Most of the women I work with have a uni degree of some kind (unlike my good self) and every one above my direct supervisor is woman. Same with my sister; double degree, currently executive level (higher salary than her husband) and having baby in March. That’s the image I always see portrayed in the media; carer and mother.
Melinda Liszewski; “All of this surgery helps men to forget that there is in fact a person associated with that body, a person with a history and a family and to see only a collection of useful body parts”
Women generally do this to themselves. Men don’t really ask women to do this. The occasional jerk, yep, but it’s mostly the decision of women. That reminds me, I wanna go see that Joan Rivers documentary…
Melinda Liszewski; why do these men choose to refer to women with such titles? Why do men purchase titles that treat women in this way, that call them these names and masturbate over them?”
Not “men”. Just some. And you must realise that porn can run the gamut from cheesecake shots of women in bikinis or lingerie to vile crud, with everything in between. I think that is the most dishonest part of this debate. It’s like saying all American cinema is vile and disgusting while using films like “Bad Lieutenant” as an example. Not everyone wants to see “Bad Lieutenant” and a lot of those who have don’t want to see it again or any films like it.
Melinda Liszewski; “Just because a woman ‘chooses’ to be treated badly, doesn’t mean you are exempt from making your own choice to instead treat them with respect.”
Exactly. Hence the reason I don’t judge and berate who make those choices, unlike your good self.
Anna; “Edward, if I had a dollar for the number of times i’ve heard ‘i thought feminism was…..’ I would be a wealthy woman.”
Anna, go have a read of blogs by sex performers such as “Furry Girl” (ironically located at feminisnt.com). They don’t want you to make their choices for them.
Edward, missed the point entirely. You again attempt to sweep all of the issues that are so detrimental to women under the carpet, it seems everything is justified in the name of ‘choice’ especially if it benefits men. It will always be possible to find someone willing to participate in their own degradation, and to advocate for others to do so, particularly if they are making money from it. This doesn’t change the fact that women are being harmed by porn. The person doing the most ‘berating’ here is you and also those who make and purchase films that ‘berate’ women as sluts and whores, or produce nasty t-shirts mocking women’s distress, or put women in cages. No-one is denied ‘choice’ because I have expressed my opinion on this blog Edward, yet every time someone challenges how women are mistreated in porn it is like the world is coming to an end. Men need to realise that there are some things in life more important than their genitals and if women’s abuse is what brings them most excitement, they need some serious help. There are many things in life worth defending, hate speech against women is not one of them.
AJ, what you refer to, then, is a lack of inner will, a lack of ability to make sound judgments, and a lack of ability to think critically. Which comes back to either a bad education, a lack of guidance by parents, or that the individual is simply incapable of making decisions due to some sort of mental shortcoming. We are all bombarded by images everyday telling us how to think, act and what to consume. The key is to acknowledge it and resist it. Just blaming others leads to a victim mentality and an unwillingness to take responsibility for one’s actions. Take a look at the most successful people in any given field, they possess what is called ‘positive freedom’, or ‘positive power’; it is the ability to make decisions and put your life on a track you desire it to. Yourself and Ms Tankard Reist would be better served by encouraging autonomy and self-responsibility rather than playing the blame game.
Taking that into consideration, what must really disturb you, then, is when a woman makes a completely rational choice to engage in sexpo and porn?
Catherine Manning – “Tim, there were some African Americans who were ‘happy’ to be slaves. That didn’t make it OK. I think the same principle can be applied here.”
Forced slavery of African Americans and this instance of women engaging in porn for financial and/or empowerment reasons is not similar at all.
The former was forced the latter made a choice. The former was paid in food and shelter, the latter is paid quite well. I have read that women get paid upwards of $100,000 a year.
“You again attempt to sweep all of the issues that are so detrimental to women under the carpet, it seems everything is justified in the name of ‘choice’ especially if it benefits men.”
It’s really hard to claim that when women like Terra Patrick, Jenna Jameson etc have luxury cars, multiple houses and are the heads of their own companies. They may be the exception to the rule, but read the blog from Furry Girl I mentioned. Not really interested in the material she makes as it’s not my thing, however at even at that level, it really seems like she’s in control of what she does and how she does it. She’s in control of her destiny. You’re saying that’s bad?
“It will always be possible to find someone willing to participate in their own degradation, and to advocate for others to do so, particularly if they are making money from it. This doesn’t change the fact that women are being harmed by porn.”
If you are of sound mind, a consenting adult and a willing participate, what the hell is wrong with that? How is that being harmed? Please tell me because it doesn’t make a lick of sense.
“The person doing the most ‘berating’ here is you and also those who make and purchase films that ‘berate’ women as sluts and whores, or produce nasty t-shirts mocking women’s distress, or put women in cages.”
No, I don’t purchase any of that material. I’ve never made a porn film or publication, never been to Sexpo ever. I don’t like modern day porn because the production values are crap. But that doesn’t mean I have to tut-tut everyone who does, like yourself.
“No-one is denied ‘choice’ because I have expressed my opinion on this blog Edward, yet every time someone challenges how women are mistreated in porn it is like the world is coming to an end.”
Doing a quick Google search on your name, it really becomes quite apparent that you personally do nothing but remove choice, not just for adult related material, but general advertisements, a wide range of products and worst of all removing choice for women who want to control their reproductive choices. Or is not you and I Googled this the evil doppelgänger Melinda Liszewski? I’d say that you’re an expert in attempting to remove people’s choice, wouldn’t you? Do you think that I as an adult am incapable of making my decisions in life? What gives you the right to remove choices for everyone? Do you understand why people might be a little upset with some self appointed judge of moral behaviour is lobbying to remove products she doesn’t personally approve of?
“There are many things in life worth defending, hate speech against women is not one of them.”
Yes because all porn is hate speech against women, ain’t it? Tell me how a woman in her undies on a bed by herself is “hate speech”? I’ll quote the old faithful here; I may disagree with what you say, but I’ll defend your right to say it. Even a douche bag like David Irving.
Again I’ll ask you; how about talking to the actual performers about their work rather than judging them? It really seems to me you’re projecting your own prejudices on to these women as well as those who consume their work. It’s all about shaming people isn’t it? Shaming those who buy the material, shaming the performers. You pick the worst examples you can find, then tar everyone with the same brush. Why don’t you understand why people might just be a little peeved off at an attitude like that?
Wow this conversation is getting quite intense; it was never my intention to participate in a debate that is almost argumentative. Edward, thanks for your response and sorry you see my statements as hypocritical. Would you believe I don’t even consider myself a feminist. I am actually very happy with where I am in life and as a woman (don’t ask how difficult it was to resist the [pressure though!), but started becoming interested in this when my daughters were being exposed to a society that scares me. I am not sure that you completely understood the point I was making. I am not saying that I don’t think women should do this because I don’t like it. (I don’t like it, but that is irrelevant).
Tim you hit it on the head when you said that it can be related to a lack of sound judgment or ability to think critically. (Although ‘judgment’ might be the wrong word, because as Edward rightly points out who are we to judge others). But Tim when you say the key is to acknowledge it and resist it. That is what I was trying to say. Sure there are some very successful people who are able to resist the crap handed out to them, but mostly people haven’t developed the skills to resist. Yes autonomy and self responsibility and general life choice skills is probably a more important part of kids education than a lot of the stuff they are learning in schools now. But in the meantime as far as I can see it is very hard for people to ‘resist’ and make choices of things that they don’t really know about. Yes Edward women as carers and mothers is also portrayed in the media and but how are they presented?
If a woman rationally chooses to engage in porn or violent sex (and when I say rationally I mean that she knows absolutely and has experience with, other choices) than that is fine with me. As long as it is not forced onto me (or anyone else), that is her ‘choice’. I actually don’t have a problem with that. My concern is that many of these women (and I did not say all women in my original posting either) may not have that ability to choose or resist. And as Edward has mentioned there are a number of women who have gained enormous power and financial freedom due to their actions – well good for them but that doesn’t take away the fact that they may or may not have other choices they could have made.
Edward you talk about Melinda removing choices, but I thought the whole conversation was about the importance of making available more choices? I hope this is not about shaming people, because that would go completely against the point of empowering people (and that includes everyone as far as I am concerned). But what I am saying is that we need to look at the context in which these choices are made, and I think that when we do that we might find that not all choices are fair and equal and easily chosen.
Removing choices? Pardon? I seem to recall that smokers thought their choices were being removed too, when laws came in prohibiting smoking in public buildings etc. I don’t personally care what people do if it’s between consenting adults, and no-one is being exploited – but I don’t believe the truckload we’re being fed now by people with their own selfish agendae, saying porn is about choice and freedom. Choice and freedom for some, it seems. I am suspicious of an industry that tries to tell us tacky factory-made rubber goods are sexy (as if) and that displays such enmity and agression toward females in so many ways, including sexually, that I can’t begin to start…. Just keep your tack to yourselves. I’m not religious, nor am I right-wing or sexually repressed, so no-one can use that to hang me. There are lots of reasons why women go along with this crap, and no amount of them owning big houses or sports cars can convince me that they are “empowered”. Sports cars and all that, eh? A very typically uneducated male measure of success I would say. Put your penises back in your pants and stop looking like a load of dicks. Get out there and do something worthwhile with your lives….you’ve obviously too much money and time on your hands, and there is much more to do out there in this world, including saving children from violence and mutilation – or even helping elderly Mrs XXXX by mowing her lawn, but that wouldn’t be a good use of your time, would it? Don’t worry – no-one is going to force you to do without your itlle wittle toysey woyseys, it would be a breach of your human rights, wouldn’t it? As for the insulting misogynistic attitudes and Clitoraid rubbish, this says it all – trumpets it in fact. I mean really, ho needs to say anything more about this industry in the face of that?
Another thing that intrigues me about Edward and Tim’s comments are the assumptions that I am speaking for all women and trying to force them to choice how I would choose. Both Tim and Edward state that it is not my place to speak for other women, yet they then proceed to speak for me (accusing me of hypocrisy and wanting women to be like myself) and they proceed to speak for the women who are active in porn (they are making rational choices and “they don’t want you to make choices for them”). Edward you also cite you sister as an example of equality. Well I can’t speak for all women, but I can speak for myself AS A WOMAN, and for having witnessed many women’s conversations. I have a very privileged position in life: highly educated, great job, terrific husband, gorgeous children, I am independent, strong, supposedly not ugly and basically have everything going for me and AS A WOMAN I’d like to tell you that equality does not exist. I am not complaining, I am happy but equality is a myth.
Edward in your response to Melinda you say that you don’t feel society values women that way and then say “unless I am living in a different society from you”. Clearly you are! Perhaps it is a gender thing, I don’t know….but much of society does undervalue women in that way!
Please don’t presume to speak for me or to be able to know what things mean for women. The reality is that you are the ‘dominant’ gender and until you walk a mile in our shoes – you don’t know. I was hoping joining this conversation might provide people like yourself with new knowledge, new choices if you like. But it seems that you are pretty set in your ways and not really open to any new knowledge or hearing other people’s experiences. It seems you judge everything from your own position in life, while at the same time telling others not to judge. Are you beginning to see how difficult it is for us women to resist the dominant discourses?
Ha, so much for being highly educated! Just noticed my spelling / grammar errors 🙂
I won’t add too much more because I’ve already said what needs to be said.
The reality is people are going to be used as “objects” (the connotations of that word really needs to de disected) in every field, porn just happens to be one of those fields. In any form of employment in a market-orientated society, people have their labour-power extracted in return for monetary gain. Those who are unhappy with their employment need to put the onus on themselves to find satisfying employment. As Immanuel Kant said, “One who makes himself a worm cannot complain afterwards if people step on him”.
AJ, sorry, I don’t mean to be confrontational at all. I’m just frustrated. On one hand you say “As long as it is not forced onto me (or anyone else), that is her ‘choice’. I actually don’t have a problem with that”, but then you say “Sure there are some very successful people who are able to resist the crap handed out to them, but mostly people haven’t developed the skills to resist. … But in the meantime as far as I can see it is very hard for people to ‘resist’ and make choices of things that they don’t really know about”. There’s some mixed messages there.
You then later go on to say “Edward state(s) that it is not my place to speak for other women, yet they then … they proceed to speak for the women who are active in porn”.
I did no such thing. Unlike yourself, I have taken the time to actively seek out the performers and via their blogs read what say about their work and the industry they’re in. I was merely repeating what they were saying, in this case the performer/blogger “Furry Girl”. She also quotes Terra Patrick (who gave up a nursing career for the adult industry) and few others. AJ, you seem to assume that a) incapable making the right choices for themselves and b) they have the same opportunities as you or I (e.g. they may not be able to get the education they need due to their family’s socioeconomic background, especially in the USA). Very presumptuous and bit condescending I think. AJ, you really need to do some research like I did and find out exactly what performers think. Don’t look at the ones attached to any of the big porn companies, look at the independent performers who are producing their own work. In particular I found Furry Girl’s blog to be really insightful.
meg ; “Get out there and do something worthwhile with your lives….you’ve obviously too much money and time on your hands, and there is much more to do out there in this world, including saving children from violence and mutilation”.
Really meg? Care to have a look at the track records of both Melinda’s (Liszewski and Tankard-Reist)? Care to take a look their Collective Shout website? Notice anything? I read a great comment on one of MTR’s pieces on OnlineOpinion.com.au;
“There are so many worthwhile examples of sexism in society. You could be talking about the fact that women still do the majority of the housework. You could be talking about the fact that women still comprise a small minority of board positions, and the number of female CEOs is smaller still. You could talk about the difficulties of obtaining affordable childcare in Australia. Instead, you continually focus on the issue of sex, with the prevailing attitude that any hint of sexuality is wrong.”
That’s all they do; complain about sexuality rather than other issues. You’ll note MTR seems to be continually focused on complaining about pop culture rather than asking people to lobby their local politicians to make businesses do the right thing in terms of employment and childcare, and to increase the funding and frontline staff of departments who look after children’s welfare. She chooses to highlight some tacky photoshoot for a worthless high school musical TV drama over other issues. Now what exactly does that say about her?
As for what I do in my spare time, meg, you really have no idea, do you? Unsure what exactly money has to do with my comments meg.
Tim – it’s not a level playing field – I don’t think your analogy stands up to scrutiny, as the least empowered and most insecure females tend to end up in sex industries for reasons I could talk about for pages, with or without sports cars, but mostly without, and again, don’t even try to give me guff about women enjoying what they get there. You see, I haven’t been involved in the industry, but let’s just say – I have had many years of life experiences observing unfortunate and exploited women and that has educated me a whole heap.
Your argument also assumes we live in a dog-eat-dog society where it’s every man or woman or child for themselves. Fortunately, and as evidenced by the plethora of writers here, we don’t. Nor do we want to. Especially those of us with children, or who have a regard for children and the next generation.
Edward – you’ve missed something. The pop culture that is under scrutiny and that you choose to render down to something trivial, is a major part of the reason why there are few women at boardroom level etc etc…… it is anything but trivial. When women are seen to be more than sex objects and their intrinsic selves and work valued, I think you’ll find the childcare and other issues will right themselves.
BTW, the old chestnut about sex prudishness and obsession with sex keeps cropping up because it’s a tool to diminish our concerns. Of course if we object it must be because we don’t feel comfortable with sex. But of course! What else could it be?!!! . Talk about a long straw…..
Ok last comment because I’m getting nowhere fast;
Meg; “Edward – you’ve missed something. The pop culture that is under scrutiny and that you choose to render down to something trivial, is a major part of the reason why there are few women at boardroom level etc etc…… it is anything but trivial.”
You really can’t be serious can you? That’s just shifting blame. Do you honestly think if purge all hints sexuality and sexism in pop culture as if they didn’t exist, then magically women would be treated fairly and we’d have more CEOs? That’s just loony.
Meg; “When women are seen to be more than sex objects and their intrinsic selves and work valued, I think you’ll find the childcare and other issues will right themselves”
Oh my god meg, you aren’t actually serious are you? Hey perhaps if we wish really hard, childcare will be much cheaper and more available huh? Seriously, is that how you think things work in the real world? They don’t.
Meg; “BTW, the old chestnut about sex prudishness and obsession with sex keeps cropping up because it’s a tool to diminish our concerns. Of course if we object it must be because we don’t feel comfortable with sex. But of course! What else could it be?!!! . Talk about a long straw…..”
Really? Show me an MTR post or article which doesn’t involve sexuality in some form or another. OK, you may be able to find a couple, but they’re the exceptions to the rule. Then you have the pop culture pieces about photo shopping women or whatever.
Firstly let me say my first post was not about you specifically but was aimed at self-indulgent sad men at their machines all night generally, who whinge if there is a whiff of a threat to their rights to waste their lives.
Secondly, to address what you’ve just said – It’s not about wishing hard and closing eyes Edward, again you seem to be missing a point or 2. It’s about the continual denigration of women through continual sexualisation of everything they do, which leads to trivialisation of womens and childrens concerns which leads to lack of political will to do anything for this sector. When an Olympic Games comes up though, that’s different, and look at how much money there is in mens sport – amazing. It’s no use debating this with you as it is clear you have not been reading feminist writings, or you would be up with the topic. The issues you mention are not unrelated to the way women are perceived and treated. Do some reading and we can talk more. Appreciate your comments though, good to debate, I’m never afraid of that.
Edward I share your frustration and am also pretty tired of being misinterpreted (and I have to be honest and say it feels like you are just picking holes in my comments rather than even trying to understand them). And contrary to popular belief I am actually active in fighting for many other issues which do not involve “sexuality” and I am now going to ‘choose’ to devote some time to those.
Meg, I agree with you entirely that Edward and Tim are just not getting what we are trying to say – not because they disagree but because of their justifications for disagreeing. I am not out to convince men like them to see the world my way, like you I just feel someone needs to speak out about other ways of looking at it. And I want to protect my kids. Meg, have you wondered why men like Tim and Edward come to sites like these? What is it that they feel this intense need to protect the women who engage in the behaviours that we are speaking out against, from women like us?
And while I too appreciate the debate and like the fact that people are talking about it (regardless what side of the debate you are one), it does worry me that it feels like some men are trying to suggest it is a women against women thing when I am 100% the intention is women for women.
AJ – “Meg, have you wondered why men like Tim and Edward come to sites like these? What is it that they feel this intense need to protect the women who engage in the behaviours that we are speaking out against, from women like us?”
I came here because the moderator refused to accept some of my replies on this article on The Drum. Also, if you had read my position correctly, I am not protecting them at all, I am trying to give some much needed balance to Ms Tankard Reist’s article. She lays the blame solely on men and completely ignores the other half of those implicit in her object of scorn, women. Until she addresses the issue of women who engage in this I won’t be taking her seriously for a second.
AJ + Meg, I just personally find some of reason behind what you say is flawed. You said that you want to protect your children. The question is; from what exactly? What is the threat? If it’s sexuality in the media and how it’s portrayed, I think it’s a completely overblown issue.
I have read a quite a lot of stuff on the so called “Raunch Culture” and “Sexualisation of Children”. For example the one which started this seemingly impossible juggernaut; the Australia Institute’s “Corporate Paedophilia: Sexualisation of children in Australia”. There has also been books by MTR of course and other papers such as the American Psychological Association’s “Task Force on the Sexualization of Girls” and Dr Linda Papadopoulos’ Sexualisation of Young People Review.
This main problem most of these is once you study them carefully, there is little substance to them. The American Psychological Association’s report is exception to the rule. However the rest leave a lot to be desired. In particular Dr Papadopoulos’ report is a mish-mash of hundreds of papers (some of which have been discredited by their own authors such as the Flood/Hamilton report), news articles and her own observations edited to suit her own predetermined conclusions. I note that in the report she uses the Confluence Model of sexual aggression, but fails to mention that in the original report men who already had histories of high aggression used more porn. She has presented the information to appear as if increased use of pornography creates aggression. This was not the conclusion of the original report.
The Australia Institute’s report has been mostly debunked by Professor Catharine Lumby and Dr Kath Albury’s submission to the Senate Standing Committee Inquiry into the sexualisation of children in the contemporary media environment. In particular these comments;
“The Australia institute report employs coding categories – beauty, fashion, celebrity, crush – which are so broad as to be virtually meaningless. … In mounting their case that children are being routinely sexualised the Australia Institute’s report sweeps together a range of broad indices the authors have decided in advance define sexualisation – including long hair on young girls and the fact that tween magazines run interview with popular female singers and actresses. …”
“In their analysis of advertising images, the majority of which show children modelling clothing, the authors of the Corporate Paedophilia report base their claims of sexualising content on the types of clothing shown, the physical poses of the child and teen models, the use of cosmetics and the settings. On close examination, however, their analysis of these images is highly subjective because of their failure to consider such images in the context of longstanding practices for dressing, grooming and photographing in family contexts children in Australia”
“It is a large logical leap, and one which ignores the deep concern that the vast majority of parents and others have for Australian children, to suggest that dressing young girls in crop tops or bikinis carries the same cultural messages as dressing a mature adult woman in identical clothing. Indeed, this is one of the key problems we have identified with much of the analysis of media texts in the report – the assumption that the same meaning can be directly read onto a child wearing a piece of clothing or posing in a certain way as would be appropriate when looking at an adult woman wearing the same clothing or posing in a similar manner.”
So the lesson here is to question everything you read. Especially those who want to censor in the name of “protecting the children”. In the past we’ve had people like Tipper Gore and PMRC telling us about awful rock and roll music, or the bizarre “Satanic Panic” in the 1980’s which was utter, utter nonsense. It’s just people crying wolf, but unlike the fairy story there is no wolf here in the end, and the little boy is a liar just wanting people to panic and get rid of something he personally doesn’t like.
Finally you said “What is it that they feel this intense need to protect the women who engage in the behaviours that we are speaking out against, from women like us?” Um, I have no desire to protect these women. They can look after themselves and do anyway without anyone’s help.
The point I was trying to make was that I went in search of opinions of the women who work in the sex industry, plus I did research on the other side of the argument. Neither of you did. You continue to look at it from one side.
Hi People!
I work for Sexpo doing promotions and body paint modelling, it is the most fun thing I’ve ever done!!! Money is not an issue, I would have done it for free because I love it.. Stop trying to live everyones life, loosen the hell up and go and make a start on your own 🙂